Exclusive: The State of Faith in America Panel with Larry King

According to a recent Pew Research Center poll, religious disaffiliation in the U.S. is at an all-time high. A panel of [all male] religious leaders and nonbelievers joined Larry King on his Emmy Nominated show “Larry King Now” to discuss this trend and what they think it means for the future of faith in America. We should note, however, that many Christians do not affiliate with "organized religion." That's why we hear Christians say, "It's not about a religion; it's about a relationship with Christ." I'm not endorsing that statement. Just noting that it's tough to know if "disaffiliation" is unbelief in a god or God. But let's assume it is....

On this panel, two atheists, Gus Holwerda and Lawrence Krauss, are featured. “The Unbelievers” is a film directed by Gus featuring Lawrence (American theoretical physicist). In it, they traveled across the globe speaking publicly about the importance of science and reason as opposed [not my word choice] to religion and superstition.

For this discussion, both Gus and Lawrence were joined by Michael Beckwith (American new thought minister and author), Christian actor David A. R. White, and emergent-church pastor Jay Bakker (speaker and author).

As part of this discussion panelists evaluated the presence of religion, or lack thereof, in Hollywood. Krauss said, "Sex, violence, and religion. Those will sell, and I think Hollywood cares about what’s going to sell. I don’t think they have an agenda, except making money. Religion is a guaranteed way of making money in Hollywood." And I agree with him here.

Krauss also discussed the public's perception of atheists and claims that a research study finds that atheists are viewed in the same vein as rapists. That may be extreme, but there is more than one way to harm a person.

Beckwith weighed in on why he thinks much of the world’s unrest is derived from religion. But that premise is patently false. Most wars by an overwhelming majority have not been religiously motivated.

Krauss says, "I just ask questions and I want people to think for themselves. And just asking, 'Maybe we don't need a god'—you get called a strident atheist. And somehow that's viewed in our society as a bad thing, for asking questions. But asking questions is what it's all about." Uh. After watching this conversation, it's apparent to me that he is not just raising questions. He thinks Christian thinking is dangerous, especially for children. And he describes the God of the Bible as "This cosmic Saddam Hussein—if you do something he doesn't like, it's not as if he just tortures you for a few years. It's for all eternity. That doesn't seem to be love." If Krauss put that in the form of a question rather than a statement, perhaps we could have a discussion. Comparing the one I worship and adore with Saddam is not "just raising the question."

In response to him, Rev. Bakker points out that references to hell in Jesus' teaching are actually referring to it metaphorically as the local burning-24/7 garbage dump. [What Bakker says here is actually true. But the lake of fire in Revelation—even if it's metaphor, is not a pleasant place, and the duration is "to the ages of the ages."] I might also add that we are strangers to God's holiness and his unsearchable ways.

Krauss said, "The Bible was written, basically, before people knew anything."

What a cocky guy! Some brilliant folks lived in ages past, and Dante knew more about cosmology that I can ever hope to know. Maybe people like him did not know what we know now about physics... but they knew plenty.

Krauss's accusation does make me wonder: Why put a scientist on a panel with an actor? Why not let two scientists have this conversation? An actor is skilled at portraying someone else; a physicist is skilled at talking about evidence. Is pitting an atheist physicist against a Christian actor an intelligent intellectual exploration of evidence?

As for Gus, here are some of his quotes:
"I could never buy into it. It was never something I could believe in, so I cast it off at an early age." — on choosing to be atheist

"You can't, with one hand, use science and reason to defend your position about god, and with the other hand, say that the laws of nature can be suspended any time there's a miracle."

I would disagree. That is why a miracle is called a miracle. It defies the laws of nature. Just because I believe God entered time and space in the miracle of the incarnation, that does not mean I disbelieve in pi or e=mc2. It is precisely because I believe in these that I can recognize when a miracle has happened.

Michael says this:
"I had the record for converting Christians to atheism on our college campus." But then something happened to him: "I had an encounter with what I call 'love-beauty.' I didn't call it 'god' because I didn't believe in god. The presence was so profound and so real that it altered my character. I can use the word 'god' again, but it's not the god you read about in the Quran or the Bible." He continues, "When I use the word 'spirituality,' I'm speaking of verities like love and peace and harmony and beauty. Those are spiritual qualities.... When they become active in you, your character changes."

"If you remain at the surface of just being a believer, a zealot, 'I just believe this' on the surface, then you think that your religion is better than another person’s religion. You’ll fight for religion. But if you actually practice your religion, you don’t end up fighting or thinking yours is better."

I would add that some believers, because of their belief system, fight. But I would also add that some unbelievers, because of their belief system, fight. Ideas have consequences. And that is part of why I believe truth is absolute. Not everyone's "truth" is a healthy truth. We need to identify what is unhealthy and help people think in a way that transforms them for the good.

David White, who acted in "God Is Not Dead," said, "I've never wavered from knowing, at the end of the day, where I'm going and is there a god." But are we to assume from this that wavering = a complete lack of faith? Isn't part of faith wrestling with doubt? Thomas doubted, but that did not exclude him from the inner circle. I do think we should ask questions. That is why my blog is titled "Thinking that Transforms." What we think changes us. It affects our behavior.

Jay Bakker noted, "Christians are doing enough to destroy themselves just by going against each other over theologies.... I'm not really worried about the new atheists as much as I am other Christians." But again, I don't think disagreeing over theology is bad. We do want to ask questions, right? It's the way people sometimes do so that can causes problems.

The segment is part of a series by the legendary talk show host launched in 2012, and it marked King’s first move to the Internet. Now in its third season, Larry King Now has more than 4 million monthly views. Larry King Now is one of the top-viewed original programming on Hulu.com and continues to be each month.